Banu ([info]fyrekat) wrote,
@ 2008-05-23 19:51:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Entry tags:akhw, reversion of offerings, sticky theological issues

Akhw Offerings: To Eat, or Not to Eat?
The treatment of food and libation offerings to the blessed dead is something which has been on my mind a lot lately. My first temple didn't really treat the subject very much- I knew that the akhw were an important part of my spiritual life, but didn't really know quite what to do with them. I re-established dinner as the family meal, offering up my plate before eating and then sharing the meal with them. I also set up a portion of my shrine with offerings of model foods in their memory- just in case they didn't like what I was having for dinner. Later on I began taking classes at the House of Netjer, who had a lot more to say about ancestor reverence- which was good. My akhw veneration became a little more structured, a little more conscious- I created a separate akhw shrine for them, and began to honor them more vocally in formal rituals on certain festival days.

But then things began to get more confused. At first, a priest in the House advised me that the model foods were a bad idea because we should never offer something which we are not willing to eat. Offerings are to be consumed after ritual, of course, and real foods are always better, she said. I caught the images of my model foods in a glass of water, consumed it, and decommissioned that portion of my shrine in favor of my dinner "family meal."

That was fine, but then Hemet mentioned in another conversation that akhw offerings should not be eaten at all- they become associated with the realm of the dead, the dead keep what they take, eating them is bad heka, and all that. She said that instead of offering up my plate, I should serve my akhw (first) a very small portion of everything to be had and leave that on an altar for a period of time. Then the offerings were to be removed, and either disposed of outside or wrapped up separately before being thrown in the trash. This was a little more difficult to implement- for one thing, I got the feeling that my akhw liked our original "family meal" setup... and those who had lived through the Great Depression did not like the idea of food being wasted. I reconciled that by taking up composting- since I have no wilderness in which to dispose of my offerings, but our city does have a composting program and several of my akhw are farmers who can appreciate the value of compost. Then there were the flies which were attracted to the open platters of food and compost (which had to be kept separate from the trash)- I solved that by purchasing a covered dish and storing the compost bags in the freezer until they were full enough to drop off in a bin. And this is the way I still do things.

However, recently a local group with whom I worship and whom I particularly respect for their dedication (both to research and tradition, as well as to the gods we adore), celebrated The Beautiful Feast of the Western Valley, a.k.a. Opet. This group is not associated with the House of Netjer, and their approach to akhw offerings was much more along the lines of my original intuition: they were consumed through the same reversion of offerings which we practice with the gods. The reasoning was that our akhw were divinized spirits- and particularly that a major point of the ceremony was to identify them with the ntjr Wsyr (Ausir, Osiris). Offerings to this deity are reverted to the people as normal, and if an association with the realm of the dead were considered dangerous then surely this deity's offerings would not be consumed- and yet they were. Also, some felt that the avoidance of association with the dead came from cultures who viewed the dead as "lifeless shades," as did the Greeks, or as tormented souls as in some other religions- one would definitely not want to draw near to these kinds of existences. But as effective, justified, divinized, and living spirits- as the Egyptians viewed their dead- there would be no reason to fear close association, and indeed our dead are as much a part of our world as our gods are. Furthermore, this was a meal for which we were inviting the dead to enter [i]our[/i] world to share, rather than us traveling into the Duat to dine with them- and so it was still the food of the living which we consumed, just shared with our loved ones.

It's all good reasoning and I have to say that I'm inclined to agree- the only problem is that neither group can point to a text from the time period, or even any outside source, supporting one view over the other. I'm wondering if anyone here may have read something somewhere which could shed some more light on this question.

To eat, or not to eat?

Edited to add:
HoN recently released their latest podcast which deals specifically with this question- and they seem to be taking a different approach than the ones which I gave above (which were the most common explanations given to my questions). You can download or listen to the podcast from their website here: http://kemetthisweek.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=344439 . I love these podcasts, and am very grateful for them. I think I'm probably still going to reinstate my food models, offering prayers at dinner, and sharing my own meal with my akhw however. Especially since this latest podcast indicates that some akhw offerings were eaten, and nothing more is being said of bad heka. ^_^ Offering my own meals allows me to present my beloved dead with much larger portions, and disposes of the physical aspect of the offering in a respectful way. Since my akhw gave me the impression that they preferred that route, this seems like the best option for me. Others' feelings may- and no doubt will- vary from person to person, and I am still looking for some reading which may indicate what was done with the offerings made to the ancestor shrines within the ancient Egyptian household (not the tombs, the ones inside people's actual homes). I welcome anyone's comments or suggestions, as this continues to be one of modern Kemet's sticky theological questions.




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[info]akhetnu
2008-05-24 03:10 am UTC (link)
I recall that the offerings slabs to the dead had depictions of the offerings themselves, and there are prayers wherein the worshiper wishes bread and beer for the blessed dead even if they do not have any with them.

This all seems to point to the importance of the intent of the offering as opposed to the physical offering itself. It is a sharing and a tribute first and foremost.

Second, if the offerings toward the Netjeru during the daily cult were consumed later, I see no reason for offerings in the funerary cult to be treated any differently. What was offered was the ka of the food as opposed to the food itself. It is the former that is 'of the dead' or 'of the gods', not the latter.

So my view is, I see nothing wrong with the offerings to the dead being consumed. If you are truly sharing a meal with your departed ancestors, then both the giver and recipient should partake. The dead have no use for material food, so they have the ka; likewise, the living eat the food they in turn need for their own sustainment.

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[info]luellon
2008-05-24 04:16 am UTC (link)
I think this is in Ancient Gods Speak about reversion of offerings, but some Akhu were in temples and received the offerings after the Gods received them and then they were eaten by the people.

I don't see why in AE people would *not* eat the offerings to the dead given this temple practice.

The energy thing, yeah, okay, but that can be from other ATRs that practice that. In Asian cultures the offerings to the dead are eaten.

As far as the representational offerings, I say go for it. All the temple inscriptions were alive and continuous and especially the offering scenes in them and this would also go for the tombs.

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[info]shuripentu
2008-05-24 09:20 am UTC (link)
In Asian cultures the offerings to the dead are eaten.

Hello! I'd be interested in any information you have on this? ^_^

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[info]luellon
2008-05-24 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I just read that on a message board where a member said that her/his ancestors were Chinese and that the offerings for the dead are eaten (the food ones).

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[info]shuripentu
2008-05-25 01:03 pm UTC (link)
Interesting; thanks. :D

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[info]fyrekat
2008-05-25 01:20 am UTC (link)
"but some Akhu were in temples and received the offerings after the Gods received them and then they were eaten by the people."

That is a very good point, and probably a good place to start researching this subject. Thank you!

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[info]lilairen
2008-05-24 05:04 am UTC (link)
Here's another thought to throw in your stew:

Temples were in the hearts of the cities, and in the hearts of the city economies; their distribution system for food was a major, major part of the flow of things.

Many places of the dead were on the edge of things, and in the case of the wealthy on the far side of the river. It strikes me as entirely within the realm of the possible that things left for the dead on the edges of the community might be left (and later eaten by jackals, vide explanation of Anpu's iconography and theophanies) simply because people might not have been able to wait an appropriately respectful time before claiming them for the use of the living.


Also:

At first, a priest in the House advised me that the model foods were a bad idea because we should never offer something which we are not willing to eat.

That strikes me as utterly ahistorical. The ancients supplied wall paintings and models for the dead to be certain they would have all good things even if the live offerings faltered, after all.

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[info]fyrekat
2008-05-25 05:48 pm UTC (link)
*nods* Then again, there were also akhw shrines within the home- and that is more akin to what we're seeing here. I think it's quite likely that you're right about the offerings left in the tombs on the edges of the community. [info]titania_le_fey seems confident that offerings in tombs were left- I will need to look further into that. I know I've seen offering loaves left in or at tombs, come to think of it, I'm just not very sure of the circumstances of the offering. And it's possible that people left some offerings because they weren't able to wait- although, from the reversion of the offerings in temple religion I don't really think that the respectful amount of time is too terribly long.

However, with the akhw shrines in the home we would of course have long enough to wait. Thank you for adding spice to the stew!

There are a few things I've learned from the House of Netjer which are ahistorical- but the temple leadership has pretty explicitly stated that they are not a reconstructionist religion, and in one of their podcasts ( http://kemetthisweek.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=303826 ) they specifically state that they are a new religion which is not a continuation of what the ancient Egyptian religion did. It took me a couple of years and a re-exposure to a truly reconstructionist temple to understand what they meant when they distinguished between what they were as a "Revivalist" religion, and what many others do with a "Reconstructionist" approach. And I'm really glad that I was able to study with them for those two years, because I think that grasping the difference was important for me.

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[info]shuripentu
2008-05-24 09:19 am UTC (link)
If eating food offered to the dead is universally bad heka, then a lot of people from a lot of (other) cultures that practise ancestor veneration are in trouble. And I don't buy that. So don't worry; I think all that rubbish about akhu offerings making you physically/mentally/spiritually ill if you eat them is, well, a load of rubbbish. :p

I eat food that I offer to my ancestors because:

  • They want proper portions: full bowls of rice, towers of fruit, plates of biscuits, that sort of thing. If I were to offer (as per HoN recommendations) a tiny spoonful of this and a cube of that, they would look down at me and go "What's that for, a mouse?"
  • And there's no way that I am going to be wasting entire towers of fruit. Not when my dead grandmother was the one telling me off for not eating every last grain of rice when I was wee, or when my dead great-grandmother was the one who had to raise 2 children in the pre-welfare world with no money and no husband.


And I haven't noticed any ill effects. :)

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[info]fyrekat
2008-05-25 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I never had any problems from the akhw offerings which I consumed either.^_^ And I agree with both of your points.

It's interesting to hear that there are other cultures who venerate ancestors and consume the food offerings later- I'd always thought that it was a more or less universally held idea that one should not eat the food of the dead. I suppose it was all those Persephone myths I had drilled into my head at school, lol!

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[info]jenniology
2008-05-24 01:22 pm UTC (link)
I always liked your idea of the offering models. I was a little sad that a priest discouraged that practice - it made sense to me, and I was very tempted (still am) to pick the idea up myself.

I do see the point of it being weird heka to eat food you've given to the dead, but at the same time, I disagree. I get the impression that my akhu sort of roll their eyes at my tiny spoonfull offerings. They appreciate the odd piece of bread as a "standard" thing, but proper food needs proper portions (at least that's the impression I'm getting). And I do get the idea that it's wasteful to not eat what I give them.

All of this has me confused enough that I tend to end up avoiding offering them edible things alltogether. -_- Not great.

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[info]fyrekat
2008-05-25 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Well, from the responses I've received here, I'm leaning toward re-instituting the food models. I have an akhw shrine here in the den, and at present it has food and libation offerings from last night. What I might do is to remove the dishes that are there now and place instead a banquet table covered with models of many different types of food and drink. But first, I'd like to get some sort of glass cover for the whole thing to keep it from getting dusty- that was a problem I had with the original food models. They're textured to look real, and that makes them not very easy to clean, lol. I could paint false doors at either end of the cover- and/or even put in a dollhouse door (as something with which my particular akhw may be more familiar)- and keep that permanently on the shrine. Then I could go back to reciting the offering prayer over my dinner plate as I had been doing.

I think I would like to do that, for several reasons. Now I'll just start saving for the materials.^_^

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[info]vivichick
2008-05-24 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I was taught that in the temples the offerings were made, the gods or entities to be allowed to absorb it's essence and then the food distributed among the temple workers and sick in the healing rooms.
Most Kemetic teachings aknowledge the heiroglyph as having the same "essence" as the actual object, so this is another way to offer. But as to eating offerings, I have only seen it to be acceptable.

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[info]titania_le_fey
2008-05-24 11:01 pm UTC (link)
While I think this is in essence a personal choice I can cite a few things. There are several instances in historical records of food offerings at temples being consumed. Often these could be offerings to the dead. (I imagine the temple of Osiris for example) Then you also have the tomb "doors" where the family left offerings, those were not eaten. So my thought would be... how do you see this offering? Is it a personal/family style offering or is it an official temple offering?

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[info]fyrekat
2008-05-25 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Another very good point- thank you! I will look further into this!

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[info]titania_le_fey
2008-05-25 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Not a problem. When I approach these situations in my own practice I always determine the meaning then look historically for how those things were handled. In the end it is intent that matters and dictates what is the right course of action.

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Hmmm
[info]selenajade
2008-05-27 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Y'know, I think it is important to eat offerings.

1) In my opinion, I think the Realm of the Dead works and moves among us, all the time, in every imaginable way.

2) The Ntrw WANT us to feast and be happy and celebrate, with them.

3) That thing about bad Heka and all sounds just a wee bit too superstitious. C'mon! The best thing you can do is have a GOOD TIME. Shoot, its probably bad Heka to WORRY about it all. :)

SJ

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Not to mention the fact that....
[info]selenajade
2008-05-27 09:15 pm UTC (link)
The Egyptians were UBER-careful about making repeated and permanenet offerings symbolically, everywhere. So, what happens to them? Nourish the Gods, nourish yourself, back and forth, its all the same, really.

SJ

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Re: Not to mention the fact that....
[info]fyrekat
2008-05-30 07:58 pm UTC (link)
This is true, although what we're talking about here are ancestral spirits... which makes it a little more complex. The spirits were divinized and identified with Wsyr, so on the one hand they could be thought of as on a level with the minor ntjrw. On the other hand, they were much more recently of human origin- so does that change things?

HoN recently released their latest podcast which is dealing specifically with this question- and they seem to be taking a different approach than the ones which I gave above (which were the most common explanations given to my questions). I'm going to edit my entry and add that, although... I think I'm probably still going to reinstate my food models, offering prayers at dinner, and sharing my own meal with them. Especially since this latest podcast indicates that akhw offerings were eaten, and nothing more is being said of bad heka. ^_^

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[info]setsseta
2008-05-31 02:53 am UTC (link)
Honestly and sadly, I cannot answer your question in a correct, ancient view point. I can only answer for me alone when it comes to my offerings.

First, if and when I offer food, which is not often, but sometimes I will impromptu offer up a plate to everyone, I eat it afterwards. I was taught that one should never waste the food, you are to consume it (again, I cannot answer in an ancient viewpoint at this time); if you do not wish to consume it, it is best to offer it to the Earth, almost like a second offering to the ancestors and spirits of the earth, including deities.

Second, my offerings at shrine are very eclectic anymore. I hold in highest esteem Neb Set, but I also hold ancestors (none of who I know are of Egyptian blood, if that matters or not) and other spirits who may be my friends in the otherworld in great veneration as well.

When I do shrine, I thank everyone, and offer to everyone, at the same time. This is done for ease mainly, as I try to thank everyone who happens to be around me, with me through it all, helping me; and, I question if it's true that there were separate shrines for the ancestors and the Gods. It could be a fact, as I have no right to say either way as I do not know, but - I just question it.

Anyhow, I was thinking of getting some of that 'fake fruit,' filling a large bowl with it and keeping it on the shrine as eternal tribute... I can't see how it's not a good idea, due to the fact that the wall carvings were to do the exact same thing if for whatever reason people didn't come around to give offerings. I am guessing this is what you meant by 'model food'?

I believe whatevery you choose to do will please your gods and your akhu immensely, Banu! :) You've always been a great person at heart, and I think that's what matters most to them. ~ Seta

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[info]fyrekat
2008-06-04 02:27 am UTC (link)
Hi Seta! Thanks for the vote of confidence.^_^

Actually, the things you mention are not necessarily un-Kemetic. Reverence for ancestors along with the gods of course is a well-established tradition, and there are other spirits as well. I am not as familiar with the relations between people and those kinds of spirits as I am with others, so for now I assume a more or less analogous form. I also continue to hold in great respect several spirits with Whom I was building a connection before I became Kemetic- they even have their own space in my shrine, and they seem quite at home with offerings of flame, incense, or water as in traditional Kemetic fashion.

Of course, it's up to you what you do and how you do it- just saying that it's not necessarily a conflict.^_~

You're thinking on a larger scale than I am with the bowl of model fruit- I'm going more for dollhouse miniatures, set up on a dollhouse banquet table, and with false doors painted on a case around the whole thing. More like the model houses and other diorama which have been found in tombs. But the bowl of fruit could work for an akhw shrine as well. I'm not quite as certain about a shrine to the gods, because I think those offerings were regularly eaten afterwards- but akhw regularly had model offerings, just as you've said.^_^ Thanks for the comment!

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[info]makhsihed
2008-06-03 12:07 am UTC (link)
Your added paragraph just goes to show that HoN (and for that matter, just about any modern Kemetic group) is most definitely a living religion, with all the growing and refining of theology that such entails. *wryly* Not a bad thing, I don't think... but interesting, for sure.

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[info]fyrekat
2008-06-04 02:01 am UTC (link)
Exactly. The Kemetic movement itself is so young- HoN is one of the longer-lived of our current sects, but still definitely growing. I don't think that's bad either, really it's to be expected. Regardless of your approach- revivalist or reconstructionist- young faiths are going to go through a lengthy period of adjustment and establishment of traditions, which will then develop along with our understandings of them. Revivalist traditions will probably have a little further to go along those lines since they are establishing a lot more of their own material- reconstructionists have the ancient religion as an already established structure to work from, although we still have to work to understand that structure and apply it to what we have available today. And of course, we're always learning.^_^

You bring up a good point, though- I've seen people (in the past) refer to these sorts of changes as though they were some sort of underhanded attempt to deceive the masses, lol. I think that is a misunderstanding- the problem comes when people mistake KO's revivalist nature for a reconstructionist one, and expect them to have had the whole religion down pat before releasing it to the rest of us. If they'd done that, we'd never have heard from them! We'd never have heard from any of our temples- in fact, we'd never have heard from our egyptologists if they'd had to have everything 100% verified before publication. And we've seen all of these parties publish and then retract statements, and adjust their approaches accordingly. That's why I believe it is so important to understand people's sources and their reasoning- it helps us to know where we're coming from, and it helps us know where to go as our knowledge and experience grows.

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As a suggestion on composting for others
(Anonymous)
2008-08-18 09:04 pm UTC (link)
If you choose to not eat your food,like Banu mentioned, composting is a much better alternative to throwing it away- and is a method that can be used for disposal of any other bits of vegetables and non-tropical fruits.Composting is done effectively really only when one has access to a worm bin... one can purchase one at Green Markets (especially if you live in a City area). You can most definately have a worm bin in your own home, and when kept properly will not smell (as compared to rotting food- a bin without worms). Nutrient-rich soil is produced by the worms and is really wonderful for household plants.

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Re: As a suggestion on composting for others
(Anonymous)
2008-08-18 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Also.. long lasting foods like those which have survived in tombs and/or used in other cultures seem like another alternative.. foods such as dried nuts,candy, chocolate (yay for Yinepu!), or ginger.

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